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Post by sunnyirish08 on Aug 22, 2012 13:40:05 GMT -5
not nit picking, but it was the end of season 3.
and i have to say i'm surprised how indifferent i am to that.
although poor abby is currently on a list of very few people who know about this. i'm not sure if vance knows about this though, jenny sure did, and ducky did as well. i remember ducky and jenny having a conversation about it and ducky saying gibbs got his man, that he would go the ends of the earth to catch the guy.
i'm still on the side of steve not going down that road though. i believe the "lost track of time" line because it's plausible
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Post by Diana on Aug 22, 2012 13:51:04 GMT -5
not nit picking, but it was the end of season 3. and i have to say i'm surprised how indifferent i am to that. although poor abby is currently on a list of very few people who know about this. i'm not sure if vance knows about this though, jenny sure did, and ducky did as well. i remember ducky and jenny having a conversation about it and ducky saying gibbs got his man, that he would go the ends of the earth to catch the guy. i'm still on the side of steve not going down that road though. i believe the "lost track of time" line because it's plausible You are right that Jenny and Ducky suspected that Gibbs had killed the drug dealer at the end of season 3, but they didn't have any proof that was the case. It wasn't until the end of season 8 that Abby came to posses the actual bullet that killed the drug dealer which allowed her to link the bullet to Gibb's sniper rifle ballistically. And, yes Vance knows because we were shown Vance hiding the ballistics report that Abby wrote showing the link between the bullet that killed the drug dealer and Gibb's sniper rifle at the end of the episode where this all came out. |
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Post by biochemgeek on Aug 22, 2012 14:12:03 GMT -5
Wow. I wasn't on the board or involved with H5O internet fandom in S1 when Koji was killed, so had no idea this was an issue for fans. I've gotta say, the thought had absolutely never occurred to me. I took the obvious implication that Wo Fat had gotten rid of the loose end (Koji) now that there was an investigation being conducted into both Koji and Hiro by the head of the Governor's new elite police task force. I'm not going to make any comments about justice vs murder or the merits of vigilanteism (although I know where I personally stand on the issue). But I will say it's a pretty controversial issue (obviously, judging by this thread), and I doubt PL would go there and stir up the controversy. This is a mainstream, network TV show, where most often the heros are "perfect". Even their flaws are "good" flaws, like Steve being amusingly insane with the shark cage and grenade hijinks, or Danny being charmingly neurotic about his daughter's future dating prospects. Look how upset people got when Danny had an affair with his ex-wife, and that's nowhere near in the same league as going out and secretly killing someone by faking a car accident. PL and CBS are not going to alienate their audience by making their heroic main character that dark. That's more the province of cable shows, which tend to be a little more dark and risque. Sorry, but there's no way. Steve did not kill Koji. I agree I don't think that Steve actually did kill Koji, but I wouldn't put it past PL to have Steve accused of killing Koji and spending a whole episode making the audience think Steve had actually committed the crime, then only at the end of it whip out the evidence proving that Steve didn't commit the crime. As for CBS not letting a heroic main character go that dark, I am going to have to disagree with you after what has happened on NCIS with Gibbs. From the inception of that show it was hinted at that Gibbs had possibly killed the drug dealer that had murdered his wife and child. Then in the season finale two seasons ago we learned that Gibbs (being a former Marine Sniper) had actually assassinated the drug dealer by sitting up on a ridge in Mexico where the drug dealer had escaped to after the murder and sniping the guy as he drove his truck. Then if that wasn't bad enough NCIS then had their most beloved character on the show (Abby) and the director of NCIS, basically cover up Gibbs' crime. Despite all of this there was no alienation or uproar from the fans, NCIS is still the number one drama on TV. So I really think it comes down to how the story is presented that dictates how the fans react to it. Point taken, there are exceptions to every rule. I don't watch NCIS so didn't know that story. I still think it's a risky route to go in big-league network TV, and certainly not a common creative choice. Good for the NCIS creative team, if it worked out for them. Although, if I understand correctly, Gibbs' actions would have taken place before the series aired? To me, that's a slightly different scenario compared to Steve going dark during the series, as we're watching. It is more common to have hero characters with shady pasts who are now reformed and have been "using their powers for good" ever since. It's also not unusual for sidekick characters to do questionable things to help the reformed hero character, the rationale being that he's good now and there's no value to having such a "good guy" busted after so much time has passed since the original crime. I think if PL planned that it was STeve who killed Koji, he would have presented it differently (as you say, that affects how fans will receive it), and if he didn't initially plan that story but thinks of it and decides to run with it later, he'll have to be very careful how he does it. |
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Post by Musicfreak on Aug 22, 2012 14:54:15 GMT -5
Wow. I wasn't on the board or involved with H5O internet fandom in S1 when Koji was killed, so had no idea this was an issue for fans. I've gotta say, the thought had absolutely never occurred to me. I took the obvious implication that Wo Fat had gotten rid of the loose end (Koji) now that there was an investigation being conducted into both Koji and Hiro by the head of the Governor's new elite police task force. I'm not going to make any comments about justice vs murder or the merits of vigilanteism (although I know where I personally stand on the issue). But I will say it's a pretty controversial issue (obviously, judging by this thread), and I doubt PL would go there and stir up the controversy. This is a mainstream, network TV show, where most often the heros are "perfect". Even their flaws are "good" flaws, like Steve being amusingly insane with the shark cage and grenade hijinks, or Danny being charmingly neurotic about his daughter's future dating prospects. Look how upset people got when Danny had an affair with his ex-wife, and that's nowhere near in the same league as going out and secretly killing someone by faking a car accident. PL and CBS are not going to alienate their audience by making their heroic main character that dark. That's more the province of cable shows, which tend to be a little more dark and risque. Sorry, but there's no way. Steve did not kill Koji. Honestly, I think this is just the fans reading way too much into it. I don't think it was PL's intention at all to hint that Steve killed Koji. If it was, it would have been addressed. I think it was misinterpreted, and even created by fans. I can't even count how many times this has been brought up! It's been quite a bit. |
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Post by Leni on Aug 22, 2012 15:00:03 GMT -5
...yet its almost two years later and we are still talking about it. I think PL intended it to be a grey area. yes, Steve is the good guy hero, but he is human. Personally, I ,at first thought he did do it, but now I think it was Joe. (There was too much emphasis on the "Where were you I ve been trying to reach you?" From Danny.) It was just enough to plant the doubt. We may never get a full answer on this. Our only hope is that if Adam is playing a bigger part than Kono's bad-boy-toy, he might come to a conclusion of his own.
I truly hope season 3 is a good as we hope. So many sub plots going on, that should be closing now that Momma McG has appeared. Boy, are we expecting alot of answers from her.
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Post by goldberry on Aug 22, 2012 15:08:45 GMT -5
...yet its almost two years later and we are still talking about it. I think PL intended it to be a grey area. yes, Steve is the good guy hero, but he is human. Personally, I ,at first thought he did do it, but now I think it was Joe. (There was too much emphasis on the "Where were you I ve been trying to reach you?" From Danny.) It was just enough to plant the doubt. We may never get a full answer on this. Our only hope is that if Adam is playing a bigger part than Kono's bad-boy-toy, he might come to a conclusion of his own. I truly hope season 3 is a good as we hope. So many sub plots going on, that should be closing now that Momma McG has appeared. Boy, are we expecting alot of answers from her. Yes, Mama McG will have to talk for like three days to answer all our questions.  ;D I think Wo Fat killed Koji/had him killed because I think we were supposed to start seeing how ruthless and vindictive he is |
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Post by sunnyirish08 on Aug 22, 2012 15:18:29 GMT -5
You are right that Jenny and Ducky suspected that Gibbs had killed the drug dealer at the end of season 3, but they didn't have any proof that was the case. It wasn't until the end of season 8 that Abby came to posses the actual bullet that killed the drug dealer which allowed her to link the bullet to Gibb's sniper rifle ballistically. And, yes Vance knows because we were shown Vance hiding the ballistics report that Abby wrote showing the link between the bullet that killed the drug dealer and Gibb's sniper rifle at the end of the episode where this all came out. i have been wondering does vance know. i just thought he was hiding it because it was an old case file with nothing interesting in it, like he said to gibbs, it's from a cold case that the director didn't need to know about. but you make a valid point. that whole incident happened 20 years ago and gibbs was questioned by agent macy at the time for, but charges were never brought and the whole thing was let go. as for steve/koji thing, can't believe peter would go down that road. especially considering the scene we saw between him and wo fat, where he could have easily led him to the dogs, instead he protected him and put him in jail. btw, steve is probably gonna be pissed off even more when he finds out wo fat got out of prison, especially after all the hard work he did just by getting him back from the plane crash |
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Post by dacascosfan on Aug 22, 2012 17:28:34 GMT -5
Simply we do not know who killed Koji and IMO that is what PL wants it could be Wo Fat or Joe or it could be someone else not yet seen.I don't think Steve did it that would make him no better than Wo Fat or Delano.As for Adam he's more than just Kono's bad boy toy I see him playing a bigger role later on whether as a good guy or bad.
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Post by katlyn520 on Aug 22, 2012 22:43:39 GMT -5
Until others mentioned it, the idea that Steve killed Koji never occurred to me. I actually thought that Hiro might have engineered it because it was Koji's poor disposal of the Champ box that got Hiro arrested. Hiro gave Koji the kind of look that said "I could kill you for that" so I actually thought he might have arranged it even as they were locking him up. I'm not saying I still believe that ... just that I'd have believed Hiro killed his own brother before I'd have believed that Steve did.
I think it's a good point that was made that Gibbs killing the man responsible for his wife's and daughter's deaths was done several years before the series started and we've heard about it as part of his past. I can't see them asking us to believe that he'd have done that once the series started. We were expected to see him as the flawed hero whose past is only slowly introduced to us so by the time we hear about his sniper activity, we know enough about why he did it that we actually sympathize with him rather than condemn him.
When Koji was killed, I don't think we had the same invested in the character of Steve (i.e., as we did with Gibbs when we learned what he'd done) to have been willing to forgive him for an "active" murder, regardless of why he'd done it. We were still learning about him and didn't really know how his mother's death affected him. So I don't think PL would have asked us to accept that Steve went all ninja and planted a bomb that killed Koji while we were just supposed to think he lost track of time. I believe he lost track of time ... have never been onboard the band wagon of 'Steve did it'.
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Post by jox3347 on Aug 23, 2012 1:59:44 GMT -5
...yet its almost two years later and we are still talking about it. I think PL intended it to be a grey area. yes, Steve is the good guy hero, but he is human. Personally, I ,at first thought he did do it, but now I think it was Joe. (There was too much emphasis on the "Where were you I ve been trying to reach you?" From Danny.) It was just enough to plant the doubt. We may never get a full answer on this. Our only hope is that if Adam is playing a bigger part than Kono's bad-boy-toy, he might come to a conclusion of his own. I truly hope season 3 is a good as we hope. So many sub plots going on, that should be closing now that Momma McG has appeared. Boy, are we expecting alot of answers from her. I think Adam has and will continue to play a bigger role with Kono than just a "boy toy" for Kono. Hope Cath plays more than "casual sex for confidential information" with Steve this season too.. As I see it, Steve only slept with Cath to get confidential information from her, same as Kono did with Adam. TPTB don't seem to write female characters that are basically using their sexuality as a means of obtaining information, When a strong female characters like Gabby, Rachel B4 turning mushy, Gov. Jameison and Malia, they are either warehoused, MIA, or killed. It seems the female character like Cath will be sexing it up to get information from Wit Sec too. Another female character that MAY be ruined by taking her intelligence skills and dumbing them down in to a short skirt and stilletos. Hope not, but TPTB's track record on empowered female characters has always been an issue for me. |
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Post by gbird on Aug 23, 2012 3:07:56 GMT -5
Wow. I wasn't on the board or involved with H5O internet fandom in S1 when Koji was killed, so had no idea this was an issue for fans. I've gotta say, the thought had absolutely never occurred to me. I took the obvious implication that Wo Fat had gotten rid of the loose end (Koji) now that there was an investigation being conducted into both Koji and Hiro by the head of the Governor's new elite police task force. I'm not going to make any comments about justice vs murder or the merits of vigilanteism (although I know where I personally stand on the issue). But I will say it's a pretty controversial issue (obviously, judging by this thread), and I doubt PL would go there and stir up the controversy. This is a mainstream, network TV show, where most often the heros are "perfect". Even their flaws are "good" flaws, like Steve being amusingly insane with the shark cage and grenade hijinks, or Danny being charmingly neurotic about his daughter's future dating prospects. Look how upset people got when Danny had an affair with his ex-wife, and that's nowhere near in the same league as going out and secretly killing someone by faking a car accident. PL and CBS are not going to alienate their audience by making their heroic main character that dark. That's more the province of cable shows, which tend to be a little more dark and risque. Sorry, but there's no way. Steve did not kill Koji. I agree I don't think that Steve actually did kill Koji, but I wouldn't put it past PL to have Steve accused of killing Koji and spending a whole episode making the audience think Steve had actually committed the crime, then only at the end of it whip out the evidence proving that Steve didn't commit the crime. That was my very first thought when Danny made the comment about not being able to get hold of him , I was convinced that they were going to set Steve up for the murder and that Danny would have this little voice of doubt in his mind , then they through us the curve ball off setting Steve up for the deaths of two other people . I think thats what made the season 1 finale so good for me I was convinced that it would be Steve being set up for Kojis murder and then I got the shock of him being set up for two different ones  |
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Post by sunnyirish08 on Aug 23, 2012 3:25:35 GMT -5
it was shocking enough that steve was set up for the two murders in the season finale.
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Post by goldberry on Aug 23, 2012 9:30:12 GMT -5
I think Adam has and will continue to play a bigger role with Kono than just a "boy toy" for Kono. Hope Cath plays more than "casual sex for confidential information" with Steve this season too.. As I see it, Steve only slept with Cath to get confidential information from her, same as Kono did with Adam. TPTB don't seem to write female characters that are basically using their sexuality as a means of obtaining information, When a strong female characters like Gabby, Rachel B4 turning mushy, Gov. Jameison and Malia, they are either warehoused, MIA, or killed. It seems the female character like Cath will be sexing it up to get information from Wit Sec too. Another female character that MAY be ruined by taking her intelligence skills and dumbing them down in to a short skirt and stilletos. Hope not, but TPTB's track record on empowered female characters has always been an issue for me. Wow, that's what you see? What "confidential information" has Steve gotten from Catherine? And Kono from Adam, for that matter? You make it sound like Steve is some kind of Mata Hari. And I don't think we've seen enough of Kono and Adam's relationship to make any kind of judgment. |
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Post by biochemgeek on Aug 23, 2012 9:40:42 GMT -5
I think Adam has and will continue to play a bigger role with Kono than just a "boy toy" for Kono. Hope Cath plays more than "casual sex for confidential information" with Steve this season too.. As I see it, Steve only slept with Cath to get confidential information from her, same as Kono did with Adam. TPTB don't seem to write female characters that are basically using their sexuality as a means of obtaining information, When a strong female characters like Gabby, Rachel B4 turning mushy, Gov. Jameison and Malia, they are either warehoused, MIA, or killed. It seems the female character like Cath will be sexing it up to get information from Wit Sec too. Another female character that MAY be ruined by taking her intelligence skills and dumbing them down in to a short skirt and stilletos. Hope not, but TPTB's track record on empowered female characters has always been an issue for me. Wow, that's what you see? What "confidential information" has Steve gotten from Catherine? And Kono from Adam, for that matter? You make it sound like Steve is some kind of Mata Hari. And I don't think we've seen enough of Kono and Adam's relationship to make any kind of judgment. Steve has definitely asked for favours from her (using the Enterprise's satellite tracking systems, etc.) but "casual sex for confidential information" sounds like he was using her, or they were using each other. I don't think that was ever the case. They definitely care about each other, even if they have chosen up to this point to keep the relationship somewhat casual. The sex/relationship doesn't come with strings attached. He asked her for help with cases, the same way 5-0 has asked Max, Joe, and Kamekona to give them a hand at various times. They all gave 5-0 the help as a favour, because they're friends. (Well, Kamekona may have other motives, only time will tell 
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Post by Musicfreak on Aug 23, 2012 10:28:34 GMT -5
Wow, that's what you see? What "confidential information" has Steve gotten from Catherine? And Kono from Adam, for that matter? You make it sound like Steve is some kind of Mata Hari. And I don't think we've seen enough of Kono and Adam's relationship to make any kind of judgment. Steve has definitely asked for favours from her (using the Enterprise's satellite tracking systems, etc.) but "casual sex for confidential information" sounds like he was using her, or they were using each other. I don't think that was ever the case. They definitely care about each other, even if they have chosen up to this point to keep the relationship somewhat casual. The sex/relationship doesn't come with strings attached. He asked her for help with cases, the same way 5-0 has asked Max, Joe, and Kamekona to give them a hand at various times. They all gave 5-0 the help as a favour, because they're friends. (Well, Kamekona may have other motives, only time will tell I have to say, even though I'm not a huge Steve/Cath fan, I never got the impression that Steve was "using" her. Sure, he asked her for favors, and yes they slept together, but I never got the impression that he was using her to gain information and then sleepping with her? No. And after the episode where Cath left, that last scene with her and Steve, you could tell he cared for her. Maybe more than he realized before (at least that's the message/impression I got. I'm not even a McCath fan!). Also, Kono and Adam? There has never been any implication that Kono was receiving any kind of information from Adam, and vice versa. I agree with Goldberry, we haven't seen enough of their relationship to make a judgement. |
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